A300 Ultima Patrol

[TCinVA]

I'd agree with you IF we were all wearing Body Armor when we shot our Social Shotties, but other than that one situation, there is no reason that a conventional Shotgunning Stance/Mount/Shotgun Fit won't work with a Riot/Tactical/Social Shotgun as well as it does with Grandpa's Dove Gun...

That is the theory that has underpinned institutional training on shotguns for the last 100 years.

...the very same bad training that is responsible for the shotgun practically disappearing from LE use in that time frame.

If you cannot grasp that firing a completely different munition at a completely different typical distance under completely different circumstances with completely different stakes might require a different approach then there's no help for you.

It's not "rocket science", no. But your brain has to be at least awake enough to recognize that wing shooting dove has zero overlap with trying to stop a violent felon bent on killing you.

There's a reason why nobody uses High Power rifle stances in CQB and why we don't teach primarily single handed static bullseye pistol stances for self defense. This is no different.

[TCinVA]

Even after a couple of decades with the shotgun (retired LE work), I'll occasionally take a shot, forgetting to have my cheek down on the stock. The slap to the face is a nice, immediate reminder of what I did wrong.

On a related note, I do find the short Hogue stock to be just a bit short for me as I do get the thumb/hand poking into my face. I think that short Hogue stock is ~12.5". I think I'm more comfortable with a 13.0-13.5" stock length whether with or without body armor.

For me the Hogue is also a bit short...it's particularly bad when combined with a Wilson ghost ring in the rear:



Tam Keel takes great photos. This was taken during the Defensive Shotgun Essentials block that Ashton and I taught at the Tactical Conference. I grabbed a student's gun for demo. (I rather like using client guns for demos at times because it shows there's no magic in my gun) With the Hogue stock on this SBS and the Wilson rear sight my thumb would have paid the price had I run it high along the top of the receiver, so I went against typical practice and crossed my thumb.

I didn't get smacked because I was demonstrating push/pull...and, well, when you execute that right the gun doesn't have a chance to shove the base of your thumb into your cheekbone.

Funny thing is I didn't even realize I changed what I normally did on the gun until I saw this photo days later.

The Hogues make me feel a little "cramped", but that's because I'm used to shooting with a more bladed rather than square stance. They're fucking beautiful when you square up more and run the gun more towards your centerline.

[Lowspeed_highdrag]

Hi,

New here in the forum.

My wife and I ordered 2 A300 UP a month ago, because everywhere was out of stock or on back order, it took a long time to receive them, finally today we got them but unfortunately we got the wrong model and because we realized it was the wrong ones after getting them out of the FFL the store is not accepting returns except if we pay 25% restock fee.
We order the regular A300 UP and we got the Law Enforcement model with a fixed choke so now I will have to send it to a gunsmith in order to work on the barrels so we can screw different Chokes and can be used on tactical training, that is a cheaper solution than payment a restock fee.

I have a 1301 without fixed choke. I am a newbie shotgunner so I don't really know why having one or not is important. For a HD/CQB type shotgun, why is it so important?

[TCinVA]

Hi,

New here in the forum.

My wife and I ordered 2 A300 UP a month ago, because everywhere was out of stock or on back order, it took a long time to receive them, finally today we got them but unfortunately we got the wrong model and because we realized it was the wrong ones after getting them out of the FFL the store is not accepting returns except if we pay 25% restock fee.
We order the regular A300 UP and we got the Law Enforcement model with a fixed choke so now I will have to send it to a gunsmith in order to work on the barrels so we can screw different Chokes and can be used on tactical training, that is a cheaper solution than payment a restock fee.

So my 2 cents:

I honestly wouldn't worry about having the barrels cut for screw-in chokes. While it is possible that the right choke would improve the performance of some types of buckshot in your shotguns, odds are the improvements will be fairly minor and only with a very limited number of buckshot loads. Tightening the choke can reduce the size of some buckshot patterns, but it can just as easily cause more pellet-to-pellet contact and spread patterns out. The prototype I shot had a cylinder bore choke in it and performed just fine with multiple buckshot loads.

My two 1301T shotguns both have cylinder bores. All of my working shotguns I use for class and loaners are fixed choke with either cylinder or improved cylinder bores.

Personally I would leave them be. If you have a gunsmith who is wiling to do the work and does good quality work and you want to give them some business by all means...but I don't think you need to make that modification.

[Caballoflaco]

...and here I thought the British put to paper everything we needed to know about Shotgun Fit over 100 years ago...FWIW, their dictum of having the forward-most portion of your cheek 1 to 1 & 1/2 inches BEHIND the rearmost portion of the heel of your hand that's likely to touch your cheek was good advice 150 years ago, is good advice today and will be good advice in another 150 years--UNLESS, of course, you LIKE getting "Popped" in the Cheek & want to develop a pretty good-sized FLINCH--Then, by all means, "Knock" yourself out!

In addition to everything else stated on this:

100 years ago the brits were shooting guns that were proofed for working loads between 8,900psi and 9,600psi at the upper end which is considerably lighter than the 11,500psi loads standard in America.

And even today if you watch many modern English shotgunning channels on YouTube they always bitch about how American loads recoil more than the shells the shoot in Britain And are uncomfortable to shoot.

[TCinVA]

I have a 1301 without fixed choke. I am a newbie shotgunner so I don't really know why having one or not is important. For a HD/CQB type shotgun, why is it so important?

Screw-in chokes allow you to tune the performance of your shotgun when firing actual shot loads (as in bird shot) so you can reliably bring down game. If you are shooting dove at 50 yards you're going to want a tighter choke to keep your pattern at that distance dense enough to hit the dove.

Conversely, if you are shooting a fast-flying clay pigeon at 15 yards that tight dove-killing pattern at 50 means you gave a much lower margin of error in hitting the clay.

So being able to change your choke is pretty useful if you are doing any sort of wing shooting with the shotgun.

Where a tighter choke helps tighten up the pattern of birdshot, it can have exactly the opposite effect on buckshot. One of the things that causes buckshot to spread is the contact that happens between pellets. This is why premium quality loads will have some sort of cushioning between pellets in the shell so they don't make as much impact into one another and flat spot. They will also use harder lead alloys and copper plating to make the pellet harder and resist deformation because it helps the pellet fly more true to point of aim.

Think of what would happen to a golf ball if you put it to a sander, flattened one edge out, and then whacked the ball with a driver. It would be comically inaccurate no matter how skilled the golfer who hit it was. Same sort of thing applies to pellets.

When they are fired, they make some level of contact. If they suddenly hit a severe constriction in the barrel then they're slammed into one another and the flat spots get larger and a sort of "billiard ball" effect is added to the whole affair which can make the resulting pattern a real shitshow.

Cylinder bore has typically been the standard for defensive use for this reason and to allow the use of slugs.

Now you can play with various combinations of buckshot loadings and chokes and you will likely find that some loads will actually perform better through a given barrel with an improved cylinder or modified choke. If you want to take that time and effort to try and find those combinations, rock on.

If you use ammunition with a flight control style wadding, tighter chokes can actually strip the wadding off the shot column sooner, giving you a less desirable pattern.

I wouldn't mind having a 1301T or 300UP with screw-in chokes, but primarily because I might want to take that gun and shoot the occasional bird or clay with it and the ability to put in a choke that enhances performance when wingshooting would be nice for that. But for defensive use I'm fine with a plain cylinder bore.

[Lowspeed_highdrag]

Screw-in chokes allow you to tune the performance of your shotgun when firing actual shot loads (as in bird shot) so you can reliably bring down game. If you are shooting dove at 50 yards you're going to want a tighter choke to keep your pattern at that distance dense enough to hit the dove.

Conversely, if you are shooting a fast-flying clay pigeon at 15 yards that tight dove-killing pattern at 50 means you gave a much lower margin of error in hitting the clay.

So being able to change your choke is pretty useful if you are doing any sort of wing shooting with the shotgun.

Where a tighter choke helps tighten up the pattern of birdshot, it can have exactly the opposite effect on buckshot. One of the things that causes buckshot to spread is the contact that happens between pellets. This is why premium quality loads will have some sort of cushioning between pellets in the shell so they don't make as much impact into one another and flat spot. They will also use harder lead alloys and copper plating to make the pellet harder and resist deformation because it helps the pellet fly more true to point of aim.

Think of what would happen to a golf ball if you put it to a sander, flattened one edge out, and then whacked the ball with a driver. It would be comically inaccurate no matter how skilled the golfer who hit it was. Same sort of thing applies to pellets.

When they are fired, they make some level of contact. If they suddenly hit a severe constriction in the barrel then they're slammed into one another and the flat spots get larger and a sort of "billiard ball" effect is added to the whole affair which can make the resulting pattern a real shitshow.

Cylinder bore has typically been the standard for defensive use for this reason and to allow the use of slugs.

Now you can play with various combinations of buckshot loadings and chokes and you will likely find that some loads will actually perform better through a given barrel with an improved cylinder or modified choke. If you want to take that time and effort to try and find those combinations, rock on.

If you use ammunition with a flight control style wadding, tighter chokes can actually strip the wadding off the shot column sooner, giving you a less desirable pattern.

I wouldn't mind having a 1301T or 300UP with screw-in chokes, but primarily because I might want to take that gun and shoot the occasional bird or clay with it and the ability to put in a choke that enhances performance when wingshooting would be nice for that. But for defensive use I'm fine with a plain cylinder bore.

Thank you! Thats an incredibly informative post. Were you Templar on M4C by chance?

[radiogeek]

I just so happened to be traveling in CA, visiting the in-laws, when I stumbled into a gun shop and found one of these A300 UP on the shelf, in-stock.

Naturally I bought it while the wife stood by and wondered why I always have to waste time on vacations going to gun shops.

It’s being shipped back to Texas to wait at my dealer until I’m done with my vacation. This is the first one I’ve seen in-stock.

It seems the distributors cupboards are bare when it comes to having my dealer back home order one for me, so instant gratification issues aside, I figured I should take advantage of the opportunity when it presents itself.

[Redhat]

I haven't seen one of these in the wild yet but does anyone have any updates from those that have already purchased one?

[perlslacker]

does anyone have any updates from those that have already purchased one?

I'm only 1 range trip, with a box of birdshot and some buckshot patterning, into owning mine but here are some (minor) issues I've noticed:

1. The rear QD socket wouldn't hold a Grovtec swivel at first. I found that the shoulder of the swivel was hitting the stock so it wouldn't seat all the way. I backed the socket out a bit with an allen wrench and that fixed it.
2. The rear sight isn't adjustable, so plan on replacing it if you want to dial POI in exactly. For me, it shot high-right but still within a -0 zone at 15 yards with LE133 and a cylinder choke.
3. On the subject of the rear sight, the listed torque spec is 4.5 in/lb. That's outside the range of the Wheeler FAT Wrench that most people have, so you might have to buy a different torque driver if you want to install a new rear sight.
4. It only comes with one IC choke tube, so you'll have to buy some more if you want to throw a tighter pattern w/ birdshot or something.

Otherwise I don't have any complaints. Some people don't like the position of the rear QD socket but it worked OK for me with a VTAC sling.