Tom Givens has a huge database on civilian defensive handgun shootings and last i heard his take on it was WML's were just not needed at all much less mandatory.
The basic gist of it was criminals need to see you to attack you, hence you can see them as well.
"For a moment he felt good about this. A moment or two later he felt bad about feeling good about it. Then he felt good about feeling bad about feeling good about it and, satisfied, drove on into the night."
-- Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy --
Very Good Point, too many times controlled environment training is touted as the best thing since sliced bread and we should all be doing it.Originally Posted by Chuck Haggard
Hand held light and shooting training is what I conduct with my officers. This type of stop occurs far more than just about anything else. This is also relevant in a traffic stop situation at night. Officer don't typically conduct traffic stops with their pistols pointed at the violator. Handheld lights are used a lot in those capacities. But when the SHTF, it happens quick, and being able to draw and hit a target with one hand must be a tool in our tool box.
I quite often refer to officers and our tactics advising we need to think of ourselves as gunfighters when this situation arises. There is no way to sugarcoat it or make it sound PC for the media or admin. I see my bosses cringe when they have attended training and we have discussions about this, but with a few examples of the old west gunfights, and their similarities with what happens today, they usually ease up.
I lost count of officer I have hit during active shooter training that were using their WML for searching. I have around a 95 percent hit rate shooting at the WML, and sims rounds get that point across very quickly. Since I was on the other end of that at one time, it is a tactic I use to train others and show them how bad it can be. Don't think for a minute that bad guys don't realize this stuff as well and some even admittedly train for this type of encounter, be it with LE or a civilian.
I had an administrator from another agency actually complain because we added a the words tactical reload to our cooperative training. He said it sounded harsh and thought someone would take issue with it, if they saw the curriculum. I explained to him, politely that tactical was a word used to describe so many aspects of training in LE, that he needs to write a letter to our state certification board advising them to stop using the word tactical in state mandated training. This of course is probably why in 25 plus years I have only made it to the rank of Sergeant......a few times....
TXPO
Last edited by Texaspoff; 09-10-2019 at 08:47 AM.
ColdBoreCustom.com
Certified Glock Armorer
Certified P320 Armorer
Certified M&P LE Armorer
Sorry if I'm bringing up an old thread, but was wondering @Gray222 if you could elaborate on why weapon lights should have a laser.
I've seen videos online where the argument is it allows you to aim when you can't properly see your sights (laying down / awkward position / etc.), and are useful for family members who aren't familiar with shooting, but curious if you had any other reasons in mind.
-----------------
At the moment for my home-defense pistol (a Glock 32 in .357sig and .40) I'm debating between getting a Streamlight TLR-8 or a Surefire X300U.
I can see the benefits of a laser (TLR-8), though the X300 gives more light output, seems to be more durable, and it's heavier design could be beneficial as a compensator against the recoil of the .357sig / .40 in the G32.
Was thinking of also making said G32 as my carry gun for the woods / camping, against four-legged threats, where a more powerful light could be useful.
Another benefit of the Surefire X300 sticking out so much against a G19 / G32 frame, is that in close encounter / grappling situations, the muzzle pressed against the attacker would be less likely to go out-of-battery (which is also feasible for a mountain lion or bear attack, up close).
I'm not sure if that scenario would realistically ever come to be, if memory serves me correctly @BehindBlueI's might have mentioned something about that particular out-of-battery statistic (against an assailant), but I can't exactly recall.
Not @BehindBlueI's, but I have heard of this exact scenario. A Pima County (Tucson) AZ Deputy told me about an out-of-battery failure to fire during an upright grapple where the suspect grabbed his Taser. The clicky-clicky of the trigger was enough to convince the suspect not to play any more, and he dropped the Taser. The weapon involved was a 3rd gen. G23, IRRC.
Not Gray222, but, if “family members who aren’t familiar with shooting” will trigger-jerk the whole weapon off-target, without using a laser, they will trigger-jerk the whole weapon off-target while using a laser. The same applies with those who do not, necessarily, jerk the trigger, but will push the weapon off-target just before pulling the trigger, in anticipation of the recoil or muzzle blast.
Yes, an X300 does help to damp recoil. That is how I made .40 recoil more tolerable, during training and quals, when arthritis started affecting my right thumb and wrist, until I was able to transistion to a 9mm duty pistol, with a lower bore axis.
A light could help prevent the slide and barrel from being pushed out of battery. I would NOT expect an opponent to politely hold still, if he felt a muzzle or a light being pressed against him, so, act accordingly. And, a light provides more real estate for an opponent who gets his hands on the weapon. Analyze the cost-versus-benefit.
Retar’d LE. Kinesthetic dufus.
Don’t tread on volcanos!
Sounds like the out-of-battery saved the day, interestingly enough. I wonder if a protruding light (like the X300) would have prevented it from going out-of-battery.
And as mentioned below by Rex, the question of how much it would help in real life comes to mind. Against an animal, sure, but against an assailant grabbing for the gun, it's a good question. Not to mention leverage and having a longer pistol to deal with.
True, though I believe there are many other benefits still to the laser. Specifically shooting from awkward positions and not needing to have a line of sight right behind the sights. I'm sure there's other benefits, I saw Jim Cirillo mentioned as a proponent of lasers, I need to read some of his books to get more insight.
Another point for the X300. In your opinion, is the added light output + compensation output (+ potential out-of-battery prevention), outweigh the benefits of a laser (with a weaker light) of the TLR-8AG?Yes, an X300 does help to damp recoil. That is how I made .40 recoil more tolerable, during training and quals, when arthritis started affecting my right thumb and wrist, until I was able to transistion to a 9mm duty pistol, with a lower bore axis.
I'm curious, in the real world, how much the extended light is of use of pushing against an assailant (or animal). I don't have any experience with those situations, but you bring up a good point: in a grappling situation an assailant will grab the slide of the gun: the light wouldn't prevent every out-of-battery.A light could help prevent the slide and barrel from being pushed out of battery. I would NOT expect an opponent to politely hold still, if he felt a muzzle or a light being pressed against him, so, act accordingly. And, a light provides more real estate for an opponent who gets his hands on the weapon. Analyze the cost-versus-benefit.
I haven't held a G19/G32 with a X300, but it seems like the added length could act as a "moment arm" to make it easier to manipulate the weapon as well, in close quarters (more real estate, as you say). Seem like it also might make it a bit more awkward to draw and move around?
Hard to decide between those two lights.
sigsag1;
You posts contain a lot of dated assumptions. My intent is to say these things in a positive tone, and with kindness:
First, lasers do not work the way they're advertised. Unless you have a really solid index, they're very hard to acquire when drawing, and you end up fishing around for the dot when you should already have your sights acquired. In recoil, you will almost always lose sight of the laser when is shoots way up. In theory you can see the laser in awkward angles, but good luck with that. Red dots allow you to rapidly acquire the dot when drawing/aiming, and in recoil. Consider getting your pistol milled for a red dot and mount one. Cheap lasers are available for $50, get one and try it on your gun for a range visit or two before shelling out for a light/laser combo for a couple hundred.
Secondly, while the Surefire x300 is a great weaponlight, it is heavy. You're going to be carrying your pistol much more than shooting it, and lighter options may have you carrying it more. Plus the length of the x300 makes the whole package so much longer that a Glock 34 sized holster is needed. This makes sense if you're carrying a Glock 34, or a have a large comp on your pistol so that it's G34 length.
Third, worrying about stand off for keeping your pistol in battery for contact shots is well into the realm of fantasy. Of the number of shootings in the US each year, I'm sure vanishingly few of them involve contact shots. If you're concerned about these, work on shooting techniques to keep the gun away from assailants. These techniques have broader uses in weapon retention.
1. I cannot address lasers, based upon hands-on experience. I was not allowed to use lasers, on or off the clock, on firearms, while I worked for a PD. I have no idea how much light output any TRL has.
2. “Pushing” with a firearm? Never done that. We had better let the grappling guys answer that one.
3. The problem with using the “real estate” of a WML, on one’s own conventional handgun, is that is get one’s fingers too close to that muzzle! Yes, a WML, by adding size, does affect handling qualities. The added mass/weight was actually beneficial, to damp the sharp .40 recoil of my P229, for example. In other ways, mass/weight and/or bulk can be less desirable.
Edited to add: I have only used the X200-series and X300-series Surefire lights much. Early on, I briefly used a Streamlight M3. So, I have no experience with the newer, more compact weapon-mounted lights.
Last edited by Rex G; 05-06-2024 at 07:49 AM.
Retar’d LE. Kinesthetic dufus.
Don’t tread on volcanos!
I use lasers on guns that have terrible sights. Examples would be a Ruger LCP or a S&W 638. The laser is a massive boon to being able to hit at speed with those guns.
The laser in general is seen as a positive because it puts the aiming reference on the target, which is extremely useful especially in low light.
The problem is that lasers are incredibly fragile and even the newer green lasers are difficult to see in daylight. Their adjustment mechanisms can be somewhat delicate and can shift zero without being obvious unless you regularly check the laser's position against your iron sights.
I don't have lasers on guns that have useful sights as I've not found them to really add any practical benefit to the use of those pistols.
As for novices, I don't find that lasers present significant benefit unless they have vision issues to the point where they can't see a useful sight picture. All most novices really need is a more effective model for the use of iron sights and the worries about that tend to disappear.
Lasers will give you a useful aiming reference for situations where you might be trying to fire a gun that isn't in your eyeline...but I'm having a hard time imagining what those situations would actually be. If I'm shooting with the gun out of my eyeline then I'm most likely shooting from a retention position because I'm a close quarters tangle where I'm relying on my #2 index to put lead into the other dude. In any other circumstance there shouldn't be a barrier to getting the gun into my eyeline.
The laser moves around a good deal on target and that causes hesitation and the dreaded NOW syndrome where somebody sees the dot where they want it and they grip the gun harder while stabbing the trigger violently moving the gun completely off target. So for your typical under-trained shooter it can actually be counterproductive for them.
Where I use the laser most is during instruction. It's fantastic for allowing me to illustrate things visually. I taught a Pistol 1 class on Saturday where I used the laser to illustrate how much movement there is in the gun. The clients can't see through my eyes, but they can see the dot moving around on the target and figure out that my gun isn't still either, and that I can get excellent accuracy despite the movement by keeping my grip consistent and working the trigger with some sympathy. I especially like using the laser to illustrate over-gripping the gun as hard as I can. The gun shakes violently and the laser's dot is essentially a blur on the target, and then I hammer through the trigger and usually put one in the X ring or at worst the 10 ring and they literally see how much the visual experience behind the gun exaggerates accuracy worries at typical defensive distances.
It's also brilliant for showing the effectiveness of various recoil control techniques, especially for one handed shooting. The laser gives them a visual reference downrange to see how much the gun is actually moving when I shoot it because most can't really tell that by looking at me from the side.
The problem with light/laser combo units is that the laser typically sits under the light giving you a real bitch of an offset problem, resulting in a lot of complicated decisions on how you go about zeroing the laser, at what distance, and then figuring out what offset is to deliver accurate shots. Remembering your offset with a laser way the hell away from your muzzle under life or death stress is not easy and I'm skeptical of anyone who hasn't actually performed extremely well under high level competitive pressure or in actual fights who tells me they can reliably get that right when the proverbial feces hit the fan.
Last edited by TCinVA; 05-06-2024 at 09:05 AM.
3/15/2016
Not-quoting this post because it's possibly one of the best-written, most informative posts I've read on any forum, anywhere, ever. I couldn't agree more with the entirety of the information and BEG anyone thinking about light/laser combinations to re-read this post in its entirety several times.
FWIW, I've sold off all of my TLR8s as basically useless for 99.9% of my anticipated needs for a fighting pistol. A TLR7 with an good, enclosed optic makes so much more sense, if your platform allows that combination. If you're running one on an LCP, that's probably an upgrade, but that's one of the rare situations where I think the juice is worth the squeeze.
Thanks @TCinVA for a great post.
Reply With Quote