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Thread: Vetting Reliability for Lever Action Rifles (In this case, Uberti/Cimarron 1873 .357)

  1. #1

    Vetting Reliability for Lever Action Rifles (In this case, Uberti/Cimarron 1873 .357)

    I have a Cimarron (made by Uberti) 1873 Winchester on order in .357 Magnum. Actually, it's still possible to cancel the order but I think I'm making a decent choice, but I'm open to suggestions if I'm making a mistake going that route. From my research and talking to people who use lever actions on a regular basis, the 1873 is one of the best choices for a pistol caliber lever action and the cowboy action guys I talk to (some of which shoot quite a lot every year through their lever guns) speak highly of it and its reliability. I have shied away from the Marlin 94C's after seeing the "Marlin Jam" in person and learning what causes it. This 1873 "US Marshal Indian Territory" carbine was apparently developed several years ago when an active duty US Marshal came into the Cimarron office and requested a duty rifle to his specifications. It has an 18" round barrel.

    This will be my first lever action in a centerfire caliber, and I want to make sure I vet reliability properly. With autoloaders (rifle and pistol), I generally require shooting at least 500 and preferably 1000 rounds, and it must not have a stoppage. I learned this amount is not necessary for lever actions (and that lever actions do not have the endurance for heavy firing schedule use), so likewise I am trying to find out what a good round count and vetting process would establish reliability for a Uberti-made 1873 Winchester, and more generally for lever action rifles as a whole. This may be the first of many. I have enough ARs, AKs, and 15+ round capacity polymer auto pistols, and this year I am focusing more on revolvers, bolt actions, lever actions, and lower capacity autoloaders. Part of the reason I wanted a .357 lever action is to keep the same caliber for my primary revolvers (GP100), and find a load that will cycle in the lever action to stock up on. I'm hoping the Federal American Eagle 158gr soft point will cycle well in it, as that's also a load I like for shooting in my GP100s.

    How should I go about vetting reliability for this lever action rifle? Round count, firing schedule, etc. I know they are not designed to hold up to extended firing, and that is not my purpose for owning one.

    A secondary question, and this has more to do with ammo, what are some .357 Magnum expanding loads that have good performance out of a rifle? I figure most hollow points would be driven too fast beyond their designed velocity envelope.

    This is the rifle (I'm not getting it from this website though): https://battlehawkarmory.com/product...al-lvr-357-18b

  2. #2
    I have the 1873 officially ordered, I am planning on running a box of Magnums through it as an initial vetting. I hope it likes American Eagle 158gr soft point. If anyone has any recommendations on how they go through vetting a lever gun’s reliability, I’d love to learn.

  3. #3
    Frequent DG Adventurer fatdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwampDweller View Post
    what are some .357 Magnum expanding loads that have good performance out of a rifle? I figure most hollow points would be driven too fast beyond their designed velocity envelope. [/url]
    There is one JHP round designed for .357 lever action rifles, the Hornady Lever Evolution series, which has a controlled expansion projectile that takes into account the much higher than (pistol) design velocities those get driven at out of the longer rifle barrel. Things like the regular soft points that may work well as pistol hunting rounds are alleged to disintegrate in the target and come apart very fast out of the rifle barrels and fail to penetrate. My experience with the .357 in lever rifles is seeing the factory 125's, HP or solid, driven at over 2000 fps. Way too fast for the bullet design. The other alternative is hard cast bullets for hunting which will certainly perform but I would personally stick with the gas check loadings, again because of velocity.

    I owned 4 Uberti's during my CAS competition days, including one identical to what you ordered, and they all performed great, but the design is the old Winchester toggle link, which is much smoother yet weaker than the later Winchester 92 action. The stronger steels we have today make up for a lot of that and make them viable smokeless cartridge shooters, but if I were going to see just how hot I could load a 357 round, I would prefer to try that with a Win'92 or Marlin action. I would stick with the factory spec ammo only and not hot rod my .357 handloads.

    If I loaded up 50 rounds of my intended ammo and ran it hard (ran the action vigorously) I would consider the rifle fully vetted. If you are looking for anything more than that you are making too much of a big deal about it. Again this is not some semi-auto which is in any way going to be ammo or chamber sensitive, nothing to vet on those counts. The rifle runs everything from the mildest .38 special loads to the hottest factory .357 loads and simply does not care other than the differences in group sizes you get with various ammo. Timing problems with the lifter were the most common issues I saw in mine and many other '73 actions in all my years in CAS. It is a fiddly action and usually when people start to go for the aftermarket short stroke kits is when those problems start to appear. There are aftermarket lifters in some of those kits that are bent to install them and establish timing but guess what, if you bent it to install it, it might get bent front running hard. The screws Ubertis use are soft and that is annoying, the lifter springs are fiddly and there are aftermarket versions that last longer but as long as you keep those screws tight they are ok.

    In SASS I completed with a 125gr .38 special cartridge that was doing 800 fps tops from the rifle and ran them as fast as I physically could and they did great. In NCOWS competition I ran them with a fully packed 2Fg black powder .357 case behind a 158gr and it ran great, extremely accurate. Out here on the farm I ran them with the Hornady Lever Evolution 140gr bullet in a .357 case that clocked about 1650 fps and woe to the coyote who got in front of my sights. It is a versatile rifle.

    They are simply not compatible with scopes because there is no good place to mount one on the receiver, both from mounting and ejection considerations. Somebody could forward mount a red dot or LER on the barrel but please don't show me the pictures of such a travesty. I might cry.

    Arguably the Japanese made Winchesters are more precisely fitted and better built, I never owned one but @Malamute has one I know. He can chime in on more things he knows about the basic desgin.
    Last edited by fatdog; 05-15-2024 at 08:26 AM.
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  4. #4
    You can find a lot of ammo tests on YouTube. I remember seeing a youtuber test Remington green box XTP or HTP ....something ...158gr semi jacketed led nose, that showed great results. On the chance that im remembering this incorrectly, its the guy who used to do ammo tests and now does ARFcom news. I forget the channel name. I think his name is Andrew.

    I dont do much vetting of lever guns. Especially in some of the calibers that I have. Eventually theyll get used enough to give back data

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by fatdog View Post
    There is one JHP round designed for .357 lever action rifles, the Hornady Lever Evolution series, which has a controlled expansion projectile that takes into account the much higher than (pistol) design velocities those get driven at out of the longer rifle barrel. Things like the regular soft points that may work well as pistol hunting rounds are alleged to disintegrate in the target and come apart very fast out of the rifle barrels and fail to penetrate. My experience with the .357 in lever rifles is seeing the factory 125's, HP or solid, driven at over 2000 fps. Way too fast for the bullet design. The other alternative is hard cast bullets for hunting which will certainly perform but I would personally stick with the gas check loadings, again because of velocity.

    I owned 4 Uberti's during my CAS competition days, including one identical to what you ordered, and they all performed great, but the design is the old Winchester toggle link, which is much smoother yet weaker than the later Winchester 92 action. The stronger steels we have today make up for a lot of that and make them viable smokeless cartridge shooters, but if I were going to see just how hot I could load a 357 round, I would prefer to try that with a Win'92 or Marlin action. I would stick with the factory spec ammo only and not hot rod my .357 handloads.

    If I loaded up 50 rounds of my intended ammo and ran it hard (ran the action vigorously) I would consider the rifle fully vetted. If you are looking for anything more than that you are making too much of a big deal about it. Again this is not some semi-auto which is in any way going to be ammo or chamber sensitive, nothing to vet on those counts. The rifle runs everything from the mildest .38 special loads to the hottest factory .357 loads and simply does not care other than the differences in group sizes you get with various ammo. Timing problems with the lifter were the most common issues I saw in mine and many other '73 actions in all my years in CAS. It is a fiddly action and usually when people start to go for the aftermarket short stroke kits is when those problems start to appear. There are aftermarket lifters in some of those kits that are bent to install them and establish timing but guess what, if you bent it to install it, it might get bent front running hard. The screws Ubertis use are soft and that is annoying, the lifter springs are fiddly and there are aftermarket versions that last longer but as long as you keep those screws tight they are ok.

    In SASS I completed with a 125gr .38 special cartridge that was doing 800 fps tops from the rifle and ran them as fast as I physically could and they did great. In NCOWS competition I ran them with a fully packed 2Fg black powder .357 case behind a 158gr and it ran great, extremely accurate. Out here on the farm I ran them with the Hornady Lever Evolution 140gr bullet in a .357 case that clocked about 1650 fps and woe to the coyote who got in front of my sights. It is a versatile rifle.

    They are simply not compatible with scopes because there is no good place to mount one on the receiver, both from mounting and ejection considerations. Somebody could forward mount a red dot or LER on the barrel but please don't show me the pictures of such a travesty. I might cry.

    Arguably the Japanese made Winchesters are more precisely fitted and better built, I never owned one but @Malamute has one I know. He can chime in on more things he knows about the basic desgin.
    Would you recommend a Winchester (modern Miroku made) 92 over a Uberti 73? For reference, I don’t plan on loading up max .357 loads, it would primarily be normal factory stuff such as leverevolution and American Eagle 158gr JSP.

  6. #6
    Frequent DG Adventurer fatdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwampDweller View Post
    Would you recommend a Winchester (modern Miroku made) 92 over a Uberti 73? For reference, I don’t plan on loading up max .357 loads, it would primarily be normal factory stuff such as leverevolution and American Eagle 158gr JSP.
    The Japanese made Winchester is a better overall rifle, possibly more durable, better fitted, better finish, probably better metalurgy but since they have been out of production for many years I would expect to pay at least 75% more if you can even find one. And no factory support as far as I know. No answer to that question from me. I was happy with my Uberti's for what I asked them to do and spare parts are abundantly available.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by fatdog View Post
    The Japanese made Winchester is a better overall rifle, possibly more durable, better fitted, better finish, probably better metalurgy but since they have been out of production for many years I would expect to pay at least 75% more if you can even find one. And no factory support as far as I know. No answer to that question from me. I was happy with my Uberti's for what I asked them to do and spare parts are abundantly available.
    https://www.guns.com/firearms/rifles...m_medium=df_NA
    I did find this one that says it’s new. I thought they were still in production? I see some various model Winchester ‘92s and 73s at online vendors that say they’re new

  8. #8
    Frequent DG Adventurer fatdog's Avatar
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    Quite possible that FN or whomever now owns the brand is importing them and Moroku is making them again. If so that is recent in the last year or two. It would be a good thing if that is true.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by fatdog View Post
    Quite possible that FN or whomever now owns the brand is importing them and Moroku is making them again. If so that is recent in the last year or two. It would be a good thing if that is true.
    I hope so. So it’s still possible for me to cancel the ‘73 and order the Winchester ‘92. That place I linked actually costs less than the Uberti/Cimarron for me.

    If it really is the better more durable/reliable .357, I would like to go with that instead. What do you think?

  10. #10
    I had a Uberti 1873 and currently own a Miroku/Winchester 1873. Fadog really already covered everything. The Miroku is probably a “better” built rifle but honestly I found them to be pretty similar. I traded the Uberti in for the Winchester because the Winchester was prettier. If I was starting over I would probably buy whichever one came in the configuration I wanted…….but the Winchester will probably still be prettier. ;-)

    Winchester still imports the Miroku lever guns but they seem to come in batches across the different models and they disappear pretty quickly once they are available. I have an 1873 and an 1886. I would like an 1894 but the prices have gone up considerably.
    https://www.budsgunshop.com/search.p.../13092/manu/23

    If I was going to run one “hard” I would probably go with the Uberti because they are pretty ubiquitous among the CAS crowd so there are more gunsmiths that specialize in them, more parts availability, and (I assume) more improved aftermarket parts for the things that do break with use.

    In terms of vetting the rifle, my limited experience is that the human operator is a bigger impediment to reliability than the mechanical bits of the rifle. So put on your favorite Western, sit on the coach, and work the action.

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