Arvada Shooting Mess

[WobblyPossum]

First, in the Sutherland springs situation occurred in a small town in rural TX, Mr. Willeford responded, engaged the suspect and then both were mobile and departed the scene before county or state LE arrived which was fortuitous for Mr. Willeford.

Second, location and culture matter. In Texas in general, and rural Texas in particular, LE is attuned to the fact that regular people have guns and gun doesn't automatically = bad guy.

I think another important point about the Sutherland Springs shooting is something I heard Mr. Willeford mention in an interview. When the suspect crashed, Willeford and the other Good Samaritan stopped their vehicle to hold the suspect vehicle at gunpoint. When respond LE arrived, one of the first things they said was something to the effect of “put the gun down.” Willeford immediately complied and put his gun down and the officer actually told him something like “not you.” Obviously in this case the officer knew Willeford was a good guy because there was additional time for LE to be informed about a citizen engaging the shooter since everyone had left the church scene to engage in the car chase. However, if no car chase happened and Willeford ended up holding the shooter at gunpoint at the church itself, the fact that he was immediately ready to comply with police commands would have likely saved his life.

[JHC]

Deleted

[Hambo]

Expect the discussion, if not guided, to descend into a person being a moral failure if one, as a civilian, does not intervene.

Not wanting to go down that sorry road again, I will just offer this observation. The questions in this thread examine only one of many possible outcomes. When making decisions in advance about what we will or will not intervene in, brutal honesty and a hard look at reality are required.

[Beat Trash]

Great advise so far.

I agree that nothing in your hands is best when officers arrive.

For the LEO’s out there who’ve done SIM’s training or FATS training, how often does the student shoot at the roll player with a badge in his hand that was mistaken for a weapon? Enough so that I’d prefer the badge around the neck. Now imagine seeing a downed officer with an unknown individual standing over him holding an AR…

If you ever find yourself involved in something like this, and are calling 911 after, be sure to give them your description, sex, race, age, clothing description. And FFS, have your hands visible and empty when the officers show up. If an officer puts you at gun point and gives you a command, like, “get on your face”, do exactly as directed. Don’t get butt hurt. It can take a couple of seconds to assess the situation identify friend from foe and determine that there are no immediate threats left.

[AMC]

Related to the comment about LE SIMS training, and specifically in regards to Active Shooter/Rapid Deployment training...when we did out initial training in the late 90's to 2001-2, the issue of Blue on Blue shootings came up frequently, even with groups of uniformed officers. You're going to have a large LE response to any such event, coming from multiple directions, possibly on multiple radio channels. Possibly even multiple agencies responding, with incompatible communications. We've had several such events, and it is a total shitshow for dispatch to sort out. Don't assume the cop giving you commands has got the info you relayed to a 911 call taker about your description and actions. Also...you won't be the only 911 caller. And every one of these incidents that I've examined involves calls of "multiple shooters". That's gonna go double if you actually just shot the bad guy. Some citizen who witnessed it and called 911 didn't see the rifle in the bad guys hands plain as day....they just saw you, the bad guy, burn some innocent down because you're a mad dog. That's the chaotic reality of one of these incidents.

As for the Blue on Blue SIMS shootings with "Plainclothes LE" at the scene...they got shot at least 50% of the time, regardless of where they had their badge, if they had a gun in their hand. In May opinion, this has to do with how our tactics differ in response to an active shooter event. There is no "discretionary time", the whole "time and distance" thing goes out the window, and we prioritize aggressive tactics that move to confront the Shooter immediately. There's less time to evaluate the scene and participants in such circumstances.

How do we mitigate this. Realistically, I think all we can do is spread awareness of these realities, train properly, including how to be the plainclothes good guy, and communicate properly....on the phone and verbally to everyone around you. Anybody else have any thoughts?

[Westtexasrancher]

Johnny had balls, tragic ending after his heroics though.

Does anyone else have input on giving patient care to someone you just defended yourself against? I'm on an ems shift as I type this, I feel like I would feel off watching someone die without helping, even if he just attacked me, but I've never been in that situation so maybe my mindset would be completely different.

[AMC]

Johnny had balls, tragic ending after his heroics though.

Does anyone else have input on giving patient care to someone you just defended yourself against? I'm on an ems shift as I type this, I feel like I would feel off watching someone die without helping, even if he just attacked me, but I've never been in that situation so maybe my mindset would be completely different.

Like everything "It depends". Are there other innocent shooting victims? Do they need help? I understand that EMS may have a different conception of "Priority of Life" than LE, but no one is going to complain about an on scene EMS person rendering aid to innocents first. And is it your on duty protocol to enter an active scene to give aid? Or do you wait for Scene Safety to be established by on duty LE?

I realize it would be difficult to sit by and watch, but the suspect is still a threat until secured by on duty LE. That's THEIR job...not yours. Yes, I've assisted in aiding a suspect I just shot, but that's because there were 10 other cops there before I holstered my gun (gotta love big city backup!). And I've also had to step over a shooting victim (a 26 year old woman) who was begging for help, because the guy who shot her was down the hall behind a door....and the scene was absolutely not safe (she didn't make it. Non survivable gunshot to the heart).

Don't be in a rush to render aid to the bad guy. The cops are gonna be there damn quick, even if it seems like forever. Just my two cents from someone who's been there, and trained others to go there (including our FD Paramedics, back in the day). Good luck.

[Wake27]

Johnny had balls, tragic ending after his heroics though.

Does anyone else have input on giving patient care to someone you just defended yourself against? I'm on an ems shift as I type this, I feel like I would feel off watching someone die without helping, even if he just attacked me, but I've never been in that situation so maybe my mindset would be completely different.

If it came down to it, I have absolutely zero plans on ever giving care to someone I just shot. If nothing else, I’d be watching him from a bit of a distance to make sure he’s still not a threat until LE shows up. Approaching close enough to give care is the last thing I’d want to do. Plus, why bother? Assuming he doesn’t become a threat again, you still have to worry about inadvertent threats on him (needles, whatever in his blood?), the possibility of a lawsuit if you provide care improperly (maybe not as much of a concern for you since you have more training but still a historical precedent), and the likelihood that now pretty much all of your attention is narrowed to that one person.


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[Screwball]

It would be a major issue in my neck of the woods… being you have more Federal L/E that would respond than state/local. We have CBP, BP, BP Sector HQ, Sheriff (office and jail), State barracks, and local PD… all within 10 miles. You’d hope that responding units have it in mind, or that they know you, but it does get a little shaken up when you start considering everything coming together. Hell, we had a hard enough time getting a description of a street bike that blew thru the port… but I guess yellow bike works well enough for blue/yellow bike (got the guy).

That being said, I keep a Level III vest in my truck at all times… which has our “Police” patches front/back (the “CBP/Federal Officer” ones… those are on my issued vest… mainly because I’m in uniform when I have that on), and a shield patch up front. That and the AR are great when I’m responding from my truck… if not, all I have is my revolver. So yelling “Federal Officer” is probably all I got other than the badge in my wallet.

For me, a 911 call saying I’m off duty, and wearing X might be enough for me not to get shot. Shy of that, risk of the job verses possibly saving lives… I like to think I’d lean to the latter most of the time.

The having the threat’s AR in hand is also something I’d be a little hesitant of. Clear it quick, pull the BCG, and shove it in your pocket. Not going to be used against you after that. But realistically, we don’t know what was occurring… and how that aspect went down. It is a shame, but it also is what happens when the narrative labels guns as bad, with zero considerations that there are good people willing to risk their lives.

[vcdgrips]

Prayers and Blessings to the deceased intervenor, officer and the responding officers. May they all have peace.