Deep thoughts on LE loadout these days

[willie]

Willie, regardless of what the rules/laws are, some folks profile and stop based on that profile. You were probably lucky enough to not fit the profile very often. There are still a lot of folks out there who want to be interdiction heroes.

Dan, I'm too boring to stop, but the same trooper in the Tyler, Tx area used to stop me because he wanted to buy my 870 Marine Magnum that I traveled with. He first it at a road block set up for escaped convicts. This was before it became legal to carry a handgun in Texas. Of course I had one but would have denied it.

[ssb]

Small town police musings:

I had a case once where the officer’s affidavit began with a very detailed description of what an cautious and legally knowledgable driver the defendant was. It was evident the officer followed this person for about ten minutes, roughly the amount of time it took to drive through the town. He detailed every occasion a stop sign was stopped at and a turn signal was used. The traffic stop occurred as the defendant was leaving town, for a violation I was suspicious of. I expressed my concern before the preliminary hearing to the officer that we may not have a legal basis for the stop. He attempted to assure me:

“(My name), we got this. I’m from (city he was a police officer in). We tax.”

The officer did not in fact got this and, upon review of his dash cam and relevant case law, it was clear that he did not have a legal basis for his stop. Accordingly, I had to dismiss a case which involved the seizure of a pound of methamphetamine.

Traffic and city code violations bring a revenue stream that is often the primary - if unspoken - reason a town will oppose contracting with the sheriff’s office. However, as BBI states, my experience has been that a small town department that can maintain 24/7 coverage is capable of handling 90% of the issues police actually deal with in small towns: domestics, thefts, DUIs, and the like. My experience has been that most of them seem to follow the guru model of policing, that model being to invest heavily in training the one detective/investigator. And that works well enough until it doesn’t. They end up with a big scene or a major crime, and super-detective is, unfortunately, just one guy or girl who is surrounded by young officers who simply aren’t yet capable of assisting effectively. Eventually, the super-detective will get fed up with the city council or the chief and leave for greener pastures, and then the department starts all over again.

Because my area is rural, the savvier small town agencies cultivate good working relationships with the sheriff’s office. Major crimes frequently cross town/city limits into the county, and all of the sudden one investigator becomes four or five. The sheriffs are not necessarily better-resourced, however, and one I can think of simply does not use detectives to investigate burglaries because, well, they’re hard and resources are scarce. The investigation is very limited: patrol deputies will take a report and if the property isn’t pawned soon after the burglary, it’s simply unlikely to be solved. Coincidentally, burglaries are the most common major crime in that county, and they have a much greater impact on the citizens than doing traffic stops to find an ounce of meth.

We have fantastic state investigators in my area, but unfortunately they only get to show up to assist the local agency when we request them. The level of service they can provide is either pretty much a full takeover of the investigation or an agency assist where the agents are basically extra sets of hands, and they also bring lots of crime lab resources to bear if utilized effectively. It is, of course, politically difficult for a DA’s office to signal to a client agency that it is incapable of doing something. It is likewise often difficult for the agency to swallow its pride and admit the need for help. So, to get those resources requires lots of careful persuasion in the early hours of a major incident.

[Lowspeed_highdrag]

I’ve been mulling over posting something about this and have until now refrained, but a thread on another forum I frequent and some recent observations watching freshly graduated police academy kids is prompting me to stir the pot. It’s a long post so buckle up.

When I became a police cadet back in the end of the 1990’s, there were still a few officers (all Vietnam vets to give age perspective) who were carrying revolvers on uniformed patrol every day. Typically they carried two extra speed loaders or full moon clips. Their common loadout was 6+6+6= 18 rounds.

By far, the most common loadout in my county (San Francisco East Bay) when I started in the early 2000’s was a single stack 45 ACP handgun (1911, SIG P220, or S&W 4506-1) and the officer carrying two extra mags on the belt. This loadout was 8+8+8+1=25 rounds. This was well over 70% of the city cops around here.

The second most common loadout locally was typically a Beretta 92 or S&W 5906 (our sheriff’s office) in 9mm or a Glock 22 in 40 S&W each which held 15 rounds and the officer would carry two extra mags for 15+15+15+1=46 rounds.

Finally, the third most common was the Beretta 96 (a couple small PD’s and some personally owned guns) or S&W 4006 (CHP) which each carried 11 rounds in the mag and was typically carried with one on the gun and two on the belt for 11+11+11+1=34 rounds.

I’d like to note that no one carrying any of these loadouts, whether 18 rounds, 25, 33 or 46, ever complained of being under-armed or having too little ammo in my recollection.

Over time load outs grew a little. “Quad” mag pouches for single stacks became a big thing around 2010 and as 9mm caught on most standard mags increased to 17 round capacity.

Fast forward to today when I commonly see three 21 or 22 round mags on a belt or external carrier with another in the gun. This is 85 rounds (or more) of 9mm on their person.

My initial thoughts on this have been “that’s a lot of weight I wouldn’t care to carry around,” and “hey, you do you, not needed, but if it makes you feel better cool.” But are there downsides to this much ammo?

This thread, as well as some personal experience, really started me thinking about it:
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....sessment-pause

I made this comment in that thread:

“When someone is trying to kill you (or you think someone is trying to kill you) it is very easy to floor the accelerator and very hard to hit to brakes fast enough.

Hours later, when asked how many rounds you fired, you may think three or four, but more often than not your magazine may tell a much different story.”

I stand by that statement.

This is totally anecdotal, but as I have seen the capacity of the magazine increase, I have seen split times decrease, and I have seen the emphasis on making accurate shots decrease as well, regardless of irons or optics. Correlation? Perhaps.

I have had to fight and argue to keep the six 25 yard shots in our annual 36 round duty qual. There are quite a few in my department that only want 15 yards and in because “speed is what really matters.” My counter argument has been “it only counts if it hits what it needs to.”

I also within the last few years had an argument with another senior firearms instructor during an instructor development day who was pushing everyone to shoot fast and he told me I wasn’t shooting fast enough and wasn’t “pushing it.” My splits were around .25 second and my group was the size of a fist from 7 yards. His argument was my group was too tight and if I wasn’t so nitpicky on accuracy I could be so much faster. Dude…

I recently sent one of our younger “good shooter” officers to the same police firearms instructor school I went through. The first day they make you shoot 25 yard NRA Bullseye on a B-16 (slowfire). I remember me and the other guy with me from my department back then both shooting our 45 ACP 1911’s with irons passed it easy peasy on the first attempt. Our young guy today with his X5 Legion with optic and 21 round mags had a hell of a time. He relayed to me after the course how he thought it was ridiculous to have to shoot that and…you know…speed matters. Houston, we have a problem…

I started carrying a Gen3 Glock 17 for dog-handler reasons back in 2014 and switched to a Gen5 Glock 19 MOS a year ago, but still stay qualified on a 1911 and carry it occasionally. I attended an academy graduation a couple weeks ago wearing the 1911 which led to conversation with a newbie of “how are you comfortable with that” and “aren’t you afraid of running out of ammo?” Comfortable? Very…and no, no I’m not.

Not that I’ve done this (wink-wink), but put two decent shooters on plate racks. One with the old 25 round single stack loadout and one with the “lots of ammo” loadout and don’t give them any rules except for knock the plates down as fast as you can. I guarantee you the single stack guy will always have slower splits, but will have less rounds shot with more hits. Very often, he or she is actually faster (sometimes significantly so) to knock down all the plates than the “faster” shooter.

Now let’s apply this exercise to real life in an OIS. Who would you want in an OIS? Which one is most defensible in court and in the court of public opinion and media scrutiny? The person that fired lots of rounds really fast or the person that fired fewer rounds slightly slower, but made his or her hits count?

The counter argument is always the one-off like the Timothy Gramins OIS (officer with a Glock 21, expends all three mags and almost out of ammo and now carries an excessive amount of 9mm). In most articles/interviews with him he’s quoted as saying, “Then I told myself, ‘Hey, I need to slow down and aim better.’" Well, there you go.

I’m not sure if it’s because they’re just available or John Wick or what, but more than three of the 20+ round mags is definitely the thing right now, I’ve formed the personal opinion that it isn’t a good thing. Anecdotally, it seems the byproduct is more rounds fired and a degradation of accuracy.

I’m seriously thinking of switching back to the 1911 with the old loadout for myself, because when I’m honest with myself, do I need anything else right now?

Wow, there's alot to unpack here. Sounds like your agency's firearms program is seriously lacking if it considers 25 yard shooting to be long distance and outdated. We run speed bulls at 15 and 25, doubles at 15, and B8 strong hand and freestyle bulls at the 25 a few times a year. I commend the instructor that wanted to push you past .25 splits with a tight group at 7, he was trying to make you grow. How will you ever know what you are capable of if you do not push yourself to the point of missing in training and then diagnose the miss?

[KevH]

Wow, there's alot to unpack here. Sounds like your agency's firearms program is seriously lacking if it considers 25 yard shooting to be long distance and outdated. We run speed bulls at 15 and 25, doubles at 15, and B8 strong hand and freestyle bulls at the 25 a few times a year. I commend the instructor that wanted to push you past .25 splits with a tight group at 7, he was trying to make you grow. How will you ever know what you are capable of if you do not push yourself to the point of missing in training and then diagnose the miss?

You obviously read just my original post and not the subsequent comments in this thread.

[AMC]

You obviously read just my original post and not the subsequent comments in this thread.

That seems pretty clear.

@Lowspeed_highdrag, I'm not sure how large your agency is, or how long you've been on the job, but the type of training you're describing is not rare in LE.....its virtually nonexistant. The ability to have regular, in depth, individual-focused sustainment training is also, unfortunately, nearly impossible logistically speaking in most large agencies. There's always time, money and resources to devote and improve training....but training simply isn't an ACTUAL priority for 99%+ of LE agencies.

On the topic of the recent thread drift, Small LE agencies, a great deal depends on the individual agency's established culture. I've seen small agencies with a very well established training culture, that fund and promote continuous training across multiple skill sets. Their philosophy is "Well....there's never gonna be enough of us. We better be good at this shit!" I've seen small agencies that due to budget shortcomings never really establish such a model.

Another issue that I have recent, close personal experience of is that in many small agencies, if they do not have a well established system of accountability, with a trusted management culture, that problems will much more quickly metastasize across the agency. The town I live in has a smaller (60 officer) department. I have in the past had positive interactions with officers from this agency, and several of them (I think the last count was 9) have lateraled to my old agency over the year. All good dudes, who universally lamented a toxic supervisory/management culture as their primary impetus to leave.

Recently the young son of some very close friends had an encounter with them, after he called for assistance when his family vehicle was vandalized while driving by a drunken idiot. Unfortunately, said drunken idiot was heavily connected to the local PD. So the young man was immediately arrested for felony ADW. The only rationale offered for this was that they reviewed video from a nearby restaurant, and it showed he hadn't slowed down when passing a pedestrian standing off of the curb outside of a marked crosswalk....so that's assault with a deadly weapon.

The case was kicked 2 days later by the DA....after the family was out $5000 to bail their youngest kid out of county jail. I know the owner of the restaurant, so I asked to look at the video with the kids parents. He agreed, and said "But like I told the officers, the camera angle doesn't show anything. It doesn't go past the outdoor seating area of the restaurant." Sure enough....the video did not show the incident, contrary to what the officer had told the arrested and his parents.

Attempts to obtain a copy of the police report were....difficult. I accompanied my friend for moral support. She was first told that police reports are not public record, and she can't have it. I asked how that jived with both the Public Records Act, and instructions on their website about obtaining copies of police reports? Then there were claims that the report hadn't been reviewed by a supervisor yet, so it couldn't be released. Ten days after a custodial felony arrest and a supervisor hadn't read the report?

My friend finally got the report. The entire statement of probable cause, the rationale for booking this 19 year old kid who called the cops for help, was the only thing redacted from the report. Though multiple witnesses (the kids girlfriend and 2 off duty cops from outside jurisdictions) were not even mentioned in the report.

That shit is DIRTY. And it's what happens when you lack a trustworthy management structure, and a culture of accountability.

[Coyotesfan97]

That seems pretty clear.

[MENTION=22852]

Recently the young son of some very close friends had an encounter with them, after he called for assistance when his family vehicle was vandalized while driving by a drunken idiot. Unfortunately, said drunken idiot was heavily connected to the local PD. So the young man was immediately arrested for felony ADW. The only rationale offered for this was that they reviewed video from a nearby restaurant, and it showed he hadn't slowed down when passing a pedestrian standing off of the curb outside of a marked crosswalk....so that's assault with a deadly weapon.

The case was kicked 2 days later by the DA....after the family was out $5000 to bail their youngest kid out of county jail. I know the owner of the restaurant, so I asked to look at the video with the kids parents. He agreed, and said "But like I told the officers, the camera angle doesn't show anything. It doesn't go past the outdoor seating area of the restaurant." Sure enough....the video did not show the incident, contrary to what the officer had told the arrested and his parents.

Attempts to obtain a copy of the police report were....difficult. I accompanied my friend for moral support. She was first told that police reports are not public record, and she can't have it. I asked how that jived with both the Public Records Act, and instructions on their website about obtaining copies of police reports? Then there were claims that the report hadn't been reviewed by a supervisor yet, so it couldn't be released. Ten days after a custodial felony arrest and a supervisor hadn't read the report?

My friend finally got the report. The entire statement of probable cause, the rationale for booking this 19 year old kid who called the cops for help, was the only thing redacted from the report. Though multiple witnesses (the kids girlfriend and 2 off duty cops from outside jurisdictions) were not even mentioned in the report.

That shit is DIRTY. And it's what happens when you lack a trustworthy management structure, and a culture of accountability.

Hello city manager why don’t you add some zeros to the false arrest check. Seriously I hope they break it off in that cities ass.

[AMC]

Hello city manager why don’t you add some zeros to the false arrest check. Seriously I hope they break it off in that cities ass.

Sadly, so far none of the police misconduct lawyers in the area seem interested. Not a big department, plaintiff isn't dead/crippled/bankrupted.....no big payday or flashy media coverage likely. We'll see. I've told them not to give up. And I'm retired now. Lotta free time. Might need to make these dirty fuckers my new hobby. I may not be Perry Mason, but I'm pretty sure I can be Paul Drake.

[revchuck38]

I may not be Perry Mason, but I'm pretty sure I can be Paul Drake.

Thanks for making me look that up! Now I want to search YouTube for old Perry Mason shows.

[RevolverJIM]

Thanks for making me look that up! Now I want to search YouTube for old Perry Mason shows.

Ha!! I'm old enough that I didn't need to look it up

[revchuck38]

Ha!! I'm old enough that I didn't need to look it up

I am too, I just didn't watch it when I was a kid.